Talk:2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Premonition"

I've removed the "premonition" paragraph from the article, as it is an objective air-crash report and "premonitions" of any kind have no place in such writings. But I'll briefly discuss it here. The paragraph went like this: Aaliyah had thoughts a month before her death that something bad was about to happen to her. "Someone's following me and I don't know why. I'm scared. Then suddenly I lift off. Far away. As if I'm swimming in the air. Nobody can reach me. Nobody can touch me". It is posited that this was a premonition in Aaliyah's dreams of what was about to happen.

"It is posited" is probably the biggest problem with it, even if one believes in such thing as premonitions. Posited by who? The "citation [14]" doesn't matter, because there are no dependable authorities on premonitions. If someone came out immediately after that interview was published and said "yes, this is a premonition of an air disaster in the Bahamas" - then it would have held some weight (but still not enough for an air-crash report). Not in the retrospect. Everybody is clever in the retrospect. So it could have been posited by anybody and that is akin to "personal research", something that is regarded as spam on these pages.

Next, the "premonition" itself. It is so vague it could mean a lot of things. If it went like "I was arguing with the pilot, then I was flying, then I was crashing down, then flying again..." - that would be a little closer but not close enough. Everyone has vague bad dreams, especially people under stress, and one might argue that an emerging pop-star would be under a lot of stress in her formative years. That dream could also mean working hard to gaining worldwide recognition, or having a stalker harassing her and then leaving her alone. Really, lots of things can be tied to that dream of hers.

I have a "premonition" of my own: someone is bound to put that "dream sequence" back into the article, because premonitions sound cool to some people. But please, think twice. That statement of hers is no premonition, prediction or foreshadowing of any kind. It was just a vague bad dream. Zm1974 (talk) 12:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

No real opinion either way, but I hope you don't mind - I edited your copy of the paragraph here to keep the references themselves for anyone else who might want to weigh in. NekoKatsun (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I strongly support deleting this paragraph, as it wasn't even correct. She didn't say when she had the dream. And it is just nonsense since the dream was that she flew away and in reality the exact opposite happened. So people have premonitions if something happens as their dreamed and they have also premonitions if something does not happen as they have dreamed? The dream came true, if at all, when she flew to the Bahamas earlier and not when she tried to leave. --178.5.15.84 (talk) 00:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The irony is: in the dream she felt weightless, in reality their plane was overweight. --84.62.86.86 (talk) 00:39, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The interview doesn't say anything about "recurring dream" it says "favorite dream" (Lieblingstraum): http://www.zeit.de/2001/36/AALIYAH_Ich_hebe_ab_ich_fuehle_mich_frei --178.5.15.84 (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't read German, so I was going by the linked source to the E! article, which does describe the dream as recurring. Since the quote was completed with the "it's a wonderful feeling" part, I'm fine with leaving it as 'favorite' dream; I changed it to 'recurring' mostly because it's a word without positive or negative connotations. NekoKatsun (talk) 01:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Posthumous Movie Release Controversy

I'm surprised there's no mention of the movie Queen of the Damned. It was released six months after she died, and as I recall, there was quite a bit of controversy on whether it should have have been released, due in part to the title. - Boneyard90 (talk) 02:08, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

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finished unfinished.

at one point the article states Aaliyah had finished production, and left early. later the article states production had completed... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C0:4980:1E85:31FA:F5CE:F683:F830 (talk) 06:10, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 31 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Death of Aaliyah → 2001 Marsh Harbour Airport crash - The "Death of Aaliyah" may not be appropriate because it ignores the other victims. I suggest moving to " 2001 Marsh Harbour Airport crash" because that title is consistent with the vast majority of these types of articles. The recent rename of 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash reinforces this idea. - Samf4u (talk) 15:01, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support: this proposed move would bring it into conformance with the Accident article naming conventions - Ahunt (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support with caveat: The article contains a lot of material relating to Aaliyah. That material first needs to be merged in to that page's section on Aaliyah#Death and the article under discussion reshaped around the crash. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:21, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
• Question Who was the aircraft's operator? Naming convention is (year) (operator) (aircraft type) (event) for this type of accident. Mjroots (talk) 16:25, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
  • The operator was Blackhawk International Airways, although that needs to be added to the lede as well. As per <year> <airline> <aircraft> <event>, then this should probably be moved to 2001 Blackhawk International Airways Cessna 402B crash - Ahunt (talk) 16:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I've added owner/operator to the lead section and support 2001 Blackhawk International Airways Cessna 402B crash as the new name. - Samf4u (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Thank you! I think, as noted above, the whole lead will need to be reworked, but that is a good start. - Ahunt (talk) 17:57, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose current proposals – The proposed scheme <year> <airline> <aircraft> <event> is long-winded and far from ideal in this case, since 'Blackhawk International Airways' will be meaningless to just about every reader (and the Blackhawk International Airways article seems to exist only to support the Death of Aaliyah one). The original proposal, 2001 Marsh Harbour Airport crash is not really per guidelines ('crash' as event is too generic; it should at least mention what crashed) and the 'Airport' in it is redundant. In short, I would support 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash (note the omission of the 'B' variant, wholly redundant in the title). --Deeday-UK (talk) 13:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support: as per Ahunt. Bohbye (talk) 15:42, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: Looks like the article has been moved to the originally proposed name 2001 Marsh Harbour Airport crash, without this discussion being formally closed. Should it be left here now or moved to 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash? - Ahunt (talk) 14:35, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I would obviously support that, as a tweak to the current title. I'm going to raise a new move request soon, if needed. --Deeday-UK (talk) 14:47, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Since this discussion was never completed I would think we can just complete it here. I would support moving it to 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash. More comments? - Ahunt (talk) 15:13, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Note: I have moved it back pending formal closure of the discussion. BegbertBiggs (talk) 11:48, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I support 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash. - Samf4u (talk) 15:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash per consistency. cookie monster (2020) 755 17:30, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support as proposed. The other proposals seem unnecessarily less concise. Create redirects from them all by all means. But the article should be moved or rescoped to fit its title, and it seems best to move. The crash is notable and merits an article. The details of the death of the singer are best handled in the article on her. Andrewa (talk) 18:19, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Diane and Michael Haughton lawsuit

"In May 2002, Aaliyah's parents filed a lawsuit, ... " There's no clear link that Diane and Michael Haughton were Aaliyah's parents; it's only when one reads the page on Aaliyah that one discovers her full name was Aaliyah Dana Haughton. (That said, I may have missed a hint elsewhere.) Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 21:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Names of Deceased

I recently added all the names of those who died on the plane, but was reverted by User:NekoKatsun, for the reason : "Consensus is we don't list/name survivors, dead, or those who miss the plane unless they are WP notable". However, this would seem to go against WP:NNC, which says the contents of an article need not be notable, so long as the topic itself is. Their names are mentioned in many news articles and references (albeit, with conflicting job titles), so it would seem prudent to include this information in Wikipedia. That said, if there is indeed a policy on this, I would appreciate a reference, as I couldn't seem to find much on the topic. Thanks, --Tiredmeliorist (talk) 13:09, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The last time the list of names showed up and was removed was this diff, but I went searching for more information too, and there isn't really a set guideline or MoS for it. In this discussion on the 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash, there's a comment that Normal practice in aircraft accident articles to only mention names of those who are wiki notable (normally determined by the availability of a wikipedia article, or would be noteworthy enough but the wikipedia article hasnt been written yet) and those of the flight crew. Someone else also points to this bit on the talkpage of the 1943 Gibraltar Liberator AL523 crash, where consensus was against including names of people without articles, but it's also noted that ...since [consensus is] isolated to the Talk page for a single aviation article and was only discussed in the context of this article, people shouldn't make the mistake of interpreting it too strictly and believing it justifies overriding general Wikipedia policies like WP:BIO1E on other aviation-related pages. So. We have options.

Further searching didn't really get me much more, although I did spot some references to WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:LISTBIO. I'm open to a new consensus or to one specifically for this page, if you'd like to discuss.

Looks like right now, the only names included are Aaliyah (significantly notable), the pilot (possible contributing factor), and a bodyguard (the sole initial survivor). While the names of the other victims are mentioned, I'm not sure what the rationale would be for including the names of the other passengers, other than their names being present in other sources. Thoughts? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks for pointing out those other articles! I personally came to this page wondering who else was in the plane with Aaliyah, so it was disappointing that this info was missing, especially since the article mentions the other passengers several times (many of whom were members of her creative team and record label).

While listing all passengers isn't always necessary (e.g., beyond 10-15 names, as with the 1943 crash), the 2020 Calabasas article lists all 9 passengers upfront. The various policies for lists seem to suggest that, for those lists within articles, the criteria for inclusion is simply verifiability, rather than notability. The list of passengers killed with Aaliyah can be reliably sourced, as media coverage at the time covered their identities (which also indicates public interest). So I think a list here is just as relevant as those killed in the 2020 crash with Kobe Bryant. But, if you are really against it, I can live without, lol. --Tiredmeliorist (talk) 17:06, 30 October 2024 (UTC)