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I have of late for some reason been involved in a bunch of discussions online regarding the rights of transgender people.

There are many things I wish more people – that is more cisgender people – understood about this topic, but there are few in particular I would like to call out here.

1.

There's a fellow named Jonathan Haidt who has come up with an interesting theory about morality and politics. His theory about morality is universal, but his theory about politics is US-specific.

His theory on morality is that there are six bases on which moral positions are taken. His theory about US politics – backed by his research – is that conservatives consider all six foundations valid bases for public policy, and that liberals only consider two or three valid bases for public policy.

I actually think Haidt is mistaken in a bunch of ways (a topic for another time), but onto something here. I do agree that conservatives and liberals disagree on the legitimacy of certain moral bases for public policy.

In particular, while both liberals and conservatives grant that the principles of Care and Fairness should guide the rules of our society, liberals do not grant any role to Authority, Sanctity, and Loyalty. The sixth – and late-added – foundation is Liberty, which liberals grant some legitimacy to, if less than Care and Fairness.

This puts conservatives – or anybody – arguing in the public sphere for a position that they hold on the bases of Authority, Sanctity, and Loyalty in a rhetorical pickle.

If you argue something is the right thing to do or the right policy to have, because of Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty, the liberal half of the country will simply reply, "LOL, no. It's just not." Because the liberal moral position holds that Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty are not legitimate reasons for any law or policy. Those three reasons carry no moral weight to liberals.

(Haidt apparently thinks this is because liberals don't perceive or value Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty. This is perhaps true for many liberals, but this liberal does Sanctity and Loyalty just fine, thankyouverymuch, but holds as a reasoned, principled position that those things must never be allowed into the law, courtesy of the Enlightenment and the Rights of Man and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the USA, i.e. due to valuing Liberty. I suspect this is perhaps less uncommon than he realizes.)

So anyone arguing from Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty has to come up with some other moral basis for their argument if they want to convince anybody other than conservatives.

(BTW, conservatives know this perfectly well, and, understandably, are pretty chapped that because of this liberal morality effectively controls the terms of discourse. Plenty of conservatives have a lot of resentment about this.)

And that is why pretty much all public policy debate in the US is conducted in terms of why a position is more Fair, more Caring, or more respectful of Liberty ("Liberal", heh) than the opposition.

Or to put it in terms of Haidt's antonyms: why the positions that they oppose are Unfair, Harmful, or Oppressive.

It should come, therefore, as no surprise that the Right promulgates arguments that things they oppose on grounds of Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty are actually Unfair to someone, Harmful to someone, or Oppressive of someone.

They know that unless they convince the liberals that something is Unfair, Harmful, or Oppressive, they'll get no traction with half the country.

Which is why conservatives promulgate "reasons" that people being transgender – or law or public policy accommodating transgender people – is Unfair, Harmful, or Oppressive of other people.

These arguments are often disingenuous, in that the people offering them would not be satisfied if the alleged Unfairness, Harm, or Oppression were redressed in some way other than curtailing the Liberty of trans people. For some reason being exposed to trans bodies is a Harm to others that is grounds for excluding trans people from locker rooms, but somehow never also a grounds for requiring locker rooms to have adequate privacy curtains, so those who don't want to be looked at naked by those of uncertain gender provenance can be accommodated without throwing anyone out.

These arguments are also often specious, comparing what are ultimately trivial Unfairnesses, Harms or Oppressions of non-trans people to quite appalling Unfairnesses, Harms or Oppressions imposed on trans people. For example, as I explained elsewhere:
When someone who looks like a woman, sounds like a woman, answers to a woman's name, has breasts, and presents in all ways as a woman when dressed is told that if she wants to use, e.g. a gym or pool[*], she'll have to change in the men's locker room, and she does,

1) That outs her to everyone who sees her in the men's locker room. It makes a god damned spectacle of her. It means every single person who sees her heading that way will stop her and say, "Excuse me, ma'am, that's the men's room," or "What are you doing here?", or "Ma'am, you can't be in here." And some "helpful" people will probably grab her by the arm or physically restrain her from the "mistake" of going into the men's locker room, or try to steer her out. And she will have to say something, just to be allowed to continue on her way. Even if she doesn't explicitly explain why she's required to be changing in the men's room, plenty of people will figure it out.

2) Being outed? Can be lethal for trans women. The response of some people (usually but not exclusively men) to finding out that someone they had heretofore taken for a woman has non-conforming genitalia, is to try to beat them to death or shoot them.

Same goes for trans men.

So a lot of trans people, prudently, decide that if using a facility entails being publicly outed as a condition of use, they just won't use it. Being able to use the locker room of the the gender you present as is a safety issue, as well as a treating-people-decently issue. And that means it's an access issue. If the choice is between being publicly humiliated plus exposed to physical violence vs. not using a facility, that means you do not have meaningful access to that facility. I mean, "Sure, you can use our gym, but if you belong to this one minority, you might get shot", is discriminatory.

[* Non optional for, e.g., college students w/ phys ed requirements.]
These Harm, Unfairness and Oppression arguments offered by the Right also frequently are of the form that because some trans person – or someone "merely claiming" to be a trans person – might somewhere, someday do somebody a wrong by means of some accommodation they were granted, that no trans person should be allowed that accommodation, ever.

This is problematic for a reason I hope is the obvious: we don't make people illegal, we make behaviors illegal. We don't say it's okay to discriminate in public accommodation against a minority because maybe that minority will commit a crime. Heaven knows the US has a lamentable history of discriminating against racial and ethnic groups because "those kind steal" and "they'll rape your women" and "they'll rip you off"; few people today are aware that that similar grounds were offered for discrimination against gays and lesbians in the mid-20th century, as well as the slander that they were predators of children. And of course infractions committed by any members of those minorities were used as substantiating evidence that no members of those minorities could be trusted.

When the Right tries to put to trial in the court of public opinion the rights of trans people to just quietly go about their business as any other citizens, please be skeptical about the arguments they are raising. By which I don't mean "reject out of hand", but rather just ask yourself if they are making a mountain out of a molehill, or could have their issues addressed without curtailing trans people's Liberty, or setting up an equivalency between trivial rights of a majority and very important, or even life-and-death rights of a minority.

At this point, these sorts of rhetorical maneuvers should be expected, and you should not be caught unaware by them.

2.

This is a free country.

What that means is that it is a fundamental premise of American culture and jurisprudence that people are free to make what personal choices as seem good to them.

We have the right to choose for ourselves our religions – or choose to have no religion – and nobody else gets to choose our religious convictions for us.

We have the right to choose for ourselves our political affiliations – or choose to have no political affiliations, and nobody else gets to choose how we vote.

We have the right to choose for ourselves where we live, and nobody else gets to choose for us what neighborhoods, cities, or states we reside in.

We have the right to choose for ourselves what employment we seek, and nobody else gets to choose our careers for us.

We have the right to choose for ourselves our friends, and nobody gets to choose our friends for us. We have the right to choose for ourselves our mates, and nobody else gets to choose our mates for us.

We have the right to choose for ourselves what we wear and how we style our hair. We have the right to choose for ourselves what we eat. We have the right to choose for ourselves what we do with our bodies.

This is the moral principle of Liberty, particularly dear in the legal philosophy underpinning this nation. Your personal choices are yours to make for yourself.

Few choices could possibly be more personal than the choice of what sex one identifies as or presents as. The state has zero legitimate interest in regulating what sexes we are.

The commonest liberal arguments for respecting the rights of transgender people to express their genders freely are rooted in Care: that transgender people suffer enormously when not permitted to express their genders, and that we should allow it as a matter of humaneness and basic decency. This is a fine argument and speaks strongly to me, too. I just don't think it goes far enough.

I don't think someone should have to suffer greatly to be justified in changing what sex they present as, or what sex they are in the eyes of the law, or seeking surgical, endocrinological, or other physical modifications of their bodies.

I think we have a right to choose our sexes for ourselves.

Gentle reader, I think you have a right to choose your sex – or sexes, or lack of a sex – for yourself. It might not ever have been a right it occurred to you to want or to exercise, but it is yours, and I think you should protect it, and not suffer its curtailment. I don't think anybody has any right to tell you what sex you are or have to be, save you, yourself.

Furthermore, I think we have a right to choose our sexes on the basis of any goddamned reason we like, including for completely trivial, specious, or silly reasons. And at any time. And have more than one. And change our minds.

I think this is obviously a matter of bodily autonomy and personal preference and conviction. Which is to say, a matter of Liberty.

Furthermore, I think we have a right to perform gender, to conform or not to gender performance conventions, however we feel like. I think we have a right not to have to change what our gender "is" to wear a skirt or a suit and tie.

Jefferson famously said of the free exercise of religion that "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." The exact same thing is true, to the exact same extent, for the free exercise of gender expression.

3.

Today, there are many people who would argue with Jefferson on his contention. There are those who are quick to point out how burdensome it is to schools and businesses that they are expected to accommodate "other" religious holidays, what an expense it is for the military and prisons to accommodate religious dietary restrictions. There are those who would argue that there are certain religions prone to leg-breaking and thus need to be suppressed. What trouble, what risk it is, to allow citizens to choose any religion they like! Why should we have to put up with all that inconvenience and possible threat, just to let people follow their convictions on matters of faith?

So far, America as a nation has, despite betraying this ideal in the worst ways from its earliest days, mostly, when it stopped to think about it, staunchly rejected this line of reasoning as obviously wrong and in violation of everything we stand for, which is why the general trend over the last two centuries has been to correct for increasing personal Liberty. I think this is, far and away, the best, brightest, and most beautiful thing about this crazy place. What hope we have for our country must surely reside in this.

So we bear the inconvenience, the expense, the risk, the discomfort of having a diverse society and a free nation, where people can largely do with themselves as they please. Because Liberty is worth it to us.

Too much of the objection to trans people being their trans selves is rooted in arguments that boil down to It's So Inconvenient For Everyone Else and It Makes Me Uncomfortable and Why Do They Have To Be Such Bothers.

I think those are really crappy reasons for curtailing someone's Liberty. We on the Left don't tolerate such foolishness as justification to curtail minorities' free exercise of religion, we shouldn't tolerate is a justification to curtail minorities' free exercise of sexual expression.

For that matter, we don't tolerate those arguments for excluding women from the workplace and from higher education, even though the provision of separate bathrooms for women was originally tied to the hiring of women (Text of the oldest sex-segregation bathroom law in the US. h/t Prof Terry Kogan in TIME) We don't tolerate those arguments for excluding racial or ethnic minorities from places of public accommodation. It made a lot of white people really, authentically uncomfortable to have to share train cars and hotels and swimming pools and lunch counters with black people, and too bad.

Please don't succumb to these sorts of arguments, which appeal to you to put your own feelings of being put out by rather minor things, over other people's exercise of what should be their freedom.

4.

I think it is really important to get out in front of these issues, from a perspective of Liberty, as pertains to bodily autonomy.

A century ago we went through the Industrial Revolution. We are now going through the Digital Revolution. I know what comes next: the Biological Revolution.

In the same way that someone in 1816 couldn't imagine what the Industrial Revolution would bring, in the same way that someone in 1916 couldn't imagine what the Digital Revolution would bring, we in 2016 can't possibly imagine what the Biological Revolution will bring.

But the one thing that will almost certainly be true is that as biomedical science – biological engineering – begins to put into human control unprecedented powers over human bodies, we – or our descendants – will have vastly multiplied choices over what to do with our bodies, and vastly multiplied threats to our authority over our bodies.

The precedents we establish today about bodies and identity are going to get amplified in all sorts of astonishing ways by advances in biology and medicine tomorrow.

I think it's critically important that we establish the legal and cultural principles now that people get to choose their sexes and gender expression for themselves, and get to choose for themselves what medical procedures they will have, if any, to confirm their gender identities.

Any legal standards about sex and gender that we base on biology are built on what shall prove to be shifting sands. To say someone's sex is "really" established by some physical trait like genital morphology or chromosomes is relying on the changeless nature of things science even now is studying how to change.

Imagine – this is not a huge stretch – that work with stem cells and organ regeneration results in the technology to grow in a lab a fresh sets of body parts from a patient's own tissue, and that, furthermore, it's possible through endocrine manipulation in the lab, to grow body parts the patient, in some sense, "would have had" if their hormones were other than they were. It is not hard to imagine radical improvements in gender affirmation surgery. It is also not hard to imagine that if there were radical improvement in gender affirmation surgery, that (1) it might be astronomically expensive, and (2) that our society, particularly the more conservative parts of it, might argue that now that it's possible to "really" change your sex through these new improved medical technologies, only people who have transitioned through these technologies should be permitted to legally transition. (Compare with how civil unions and unmarried partner benefits were rolled back after the advent of marriage equality: "if you can get married now, why should we allow your partner on your health insurance if you don't marry them?") It's a "sensible" sounding argument that has as a consequence prohibiting all but the wealthiest people from exercising their free expression of sexual identity, and de facto forbidding most trans people to transition.

Okay, scenario 2: replace "astronomically expensive" with "does something terrible to your telomeres, such that you die of old age by your mid forties."

I hope it is clear how important it could be to get these things right, now. It may be that the stakes only get higher.




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From: [identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com
I actually think Haidt is mistaken in a bunch of ways (a topic for another time), but onto something here.

I'll be very interested in what you eventually have to say about this. I've read several articles he's written, and while I lack sufficient knowledge to determine how accurate his theory is (and certainly find it interesting), I've found some of the conclusions he draws to be rather dubious - largely regarding suggestions he's made that just focusing on only two of these foundations (as most liberals do) is limiting in some fashion, rather than (as I see it) that caring and fairness are the only just and proper foundations for governance.

The precedents we establish today about bodies and identity are going to get amplified in all sorts of astonishing ways by advances in biology and medicine tomorrow.

Absolutely, back in the 80s & 90s I regularly argued that using the "I was born that way" defense of homosexuality was inherently problematic, not just because it avoids the far more important argument that there's nothing wrong with being lesbian or gay, but also that as gene therapies and suchlike advanced, if that became the primary defense, people would start looking for cures or preventions.

I have no inherent objection to (safe) genetic engineering of humans, but regardless of whether sexual preference is genetic or not, I'm not keen on a world where there's a major industry of companies offering to help parents engineer their children or children to be to not be lesbian or gay.
Edited Date: 2016-05-31 10:03 am (UTC)
pryder: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pryder
What about engineering children not to be homophobic? (Assuming there is any genetic component to that, which is unknown.) Would that be a good thing or just as objectionable?

That's a problem that arises when people discuss genetic engineering: who gets to choose which traits are selected for? For example, some might argue that we should engineer sexual infidelity out of the race. (Though it might be difficult, given how common a behavior it is in just about every species that has been studied.) But it's equally valid to argue that we should instead engineer out sexual jealousy, and thus eliminate infidelity as a cause of human pain and suffering.
From: [identity profile] hudebnik.livejournal.com
Another whole bucket of worms. What features of individual humans would be worth "curing", assuming we could?

In "Children of a Lesser God" is an exchange in which the deaf female lead tells her hearing boyfriend that she wants to get married and have babies -- deaf babies. And he has to admit that no, he doesn't want deaf babies: he would accept them and love them if they came that way, but he would prefer that they weren't. What would we lose by "curing" deafness?

Temple Grandin points out that her autism gives her powerful and valuable ways of looking at the world that "neurotypical" people don't have, and argues for recognizing and harnessing these modes of thought. John Elder Robison, in Look Me in the Eye, says much the same about his Asperger's. But in his new book Switched On, he describes a cranial-stimulation technique that seems to (temporarily) "cure" his Asperger's syndrome. (Which raises other intriguing possibilities, like somebody temporarily and intentionally acquiring Asperger's as a study aid.) If we could "cure" these conditions, would we want to?

Schizophrenia (or the various things that have gone by that name over the years) causes enormous suffering in the people who have it, and among their friends and families. It's also arguably given us some great art. Should we cure it if we could?

[Insert obligatory X-men reference here.]

In all of these areas, the "nicest" answer is "let people decide for themselves." Which is great if medical science is able to come up with temporary, reversible cures that work on adults.... but what if we can only come up with a permanent, irreversible "cure"? Or one that only works on small children, or only works on embryos? What about conditions which, whatever their benefits, also tend to make people violent and therefore a danger to others?
From: [identity profile] catsittingstill.livejournal.com
I've seen someone (I forget who now, drat it) building on Haidt's argument by referring to Purity (I think perhaps as another word for Sanctity) and claiming that liberals had no Purity taboo--and my response was "sure we do. We have the standard American food taboo; we don't eat bugs, we don't eat food that has been touched by bugs, we won't use utensils that have been touched by bugs without cleaning them whether or not that is actually necessary."

Yes, sure there are all kinds of taboo challenging things like it being actually possible to buy chocolate covered grasshoppers and stuff--but ask people how they would respond if they pulled a cookie sheet full of freshly backed chocolate chip cookies out of the oven--just been baked at 350 for 20 minutes, so germs are pretty much not an issue, at least for eating--and found a dead cockroach on top of the middle cookie. Would they eat the cookie? How about a cookie that was next to it? Would they re-use the cookie sheet without washing it? Or would cookies go in the garbage and the cookie sheet get vigorously scrubbed?

So sure a lot of us *have* a purity taboo. We just don't agree that "you eat bugs, therefore you are unclean and shouldn't be allowed to / get married / have contact with children / control your own body / etc is a fair and rational idea. We know what it is to have a taboo whose violation creates a visceral sense of disgust; we just don't allow that to swamp our sense of what is right and fair.

I'm having to restrain myself from typing "we're better than that."

(no subject)

Date: 2016-05-31 12:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etherial.livejournal.com
(Haidt apparently thinks this is because liberals don't perceive or value Authority, Sanctity, or Loyalty. This is perhaps true for many liberals, but this liberal does Sanctity and Loyalty just fine, thankyouverymuch, but holds as a reasoned, principled position that those things must never be allowed into the law, courtesy of the Enlightenment and the Rights of Man and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the USA, i.e. due to valuing Liberty. I suspect this is perhaps less uncommon than he realizes.)

Count me among the liberals who have rejected these moral bases as being valid for building a society on. So far, none of the research I've seen that mentions Haidt's work has considered why liberals don't value these things in government, and usually assumes we are somehow deficient for not wanting state money to promote virginity or whatever.

Axiomatic deficiency

Date: 2016-06-03 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tahkhleet.livejournal.com
Of course they consider liberals deficient for ignoring/deriding huge swaths of moral concerns. Just as liberals consider conservatives deficient for elevating non concerns to the realm of moral concerns.

It's more common to hear a reasoned, polite discussion comparing theology/religious doctrine/mythology (between two devout adherents of different camps) than to hear such a discussion about fundamental morality.

Because such a discussion only happens if both people are on the verge of being disaffected with their cultures.

Morality is fundamental to culture. Culture, as Siderea wrote on her brilliant essay on "why are blue jeans blue" not something you generally feel objective and open to debating. Particularly as to whether your yardsticks and metrics are fundamentally correct. Culture has succeeded in absorbing you into it _because_ you feel those things are so right they are mostly beyond question!

(A person stops being a gadfly or muckracker or reformer and becomes a subversive when people in the culture no longer believe their protestations they're also part of the culture.)

Just getting people to debate if those yardsticks and metrics are being applied correctly is enough of a struggle.

The real "clash of civilizations" is 3 value vs. 6 value.

(Well, and both civilizations against the emerging super elite, the few thousand people globally who control 50-60% of everything. These wretches are laughing at the rest of us because while elites tend to be marginally encultured to start with, globalization has accentuated this hugely.)

(If history is any guide, at some point, the superelite ability to masquerade as belonging to a mainstream culture is going to be compromised and then...things get messy. Because their own subcultural value is they're the only ones with brains, they're the only ones that matter, and they literally cannot conceive that their methods of running the show could ever fail.

The guy who made Amazon is the only case I've heard of who recognizes this threat and it sounds like most of his peers are ignoring him or at least treating him as mostly wrong.)

If three value civilization wants to prevail they better step up their game. And in the US this is going to have to start with restoring the rule of law and creating a meaningful social safety net to alleviate the worst of the suffering caused by infrastructure neglect and the decline of workplace participation.

(The experiment has been run for thirty five years now and the results keep coming back the same: making being poor extremely onerous does not magically give everyone looking for a job an actual job.)

Liberty

Date: 2016-05-31 01:06 pm (UTC)
cellio: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cellio
I suspect that Conservatives don't hold to all six of Haidt's principles, and that this is part of the problem. Conservatives talk a lot about Liberty, but they really mean "our" Liberty and not "everybody's" Liberty. If Liberty were a core principle, then harassing and threatening those who are different but whose behavior has caused no harm wouldn't be ok with them. And yet they do it. Gay marriage causes zero harm to heterosexual marriage, yet they work against it and even violate the law to promote their view (like restricting access to marriage licenses). Access to birth control does no harm to those seeking to have children, yet they restrict access, especially to the most vulnerable (poor, young). Other people's non-invasive exercise of their own religions does no harm to them exercising theirs, and yet they seek to restrict some while forcibly promoting their own religion -- the practice of which violates others' religious Liberty.

Do arguments based on Liberty work with Conservatives? If not, how instead should Liberals frame those arguments?

Re: Liberty

Date: 2016-05-31 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hudebnik.livejournal.com
I think regardless of which principles you consider valid bases for law and policy, you'll eventually have to deal with conflicts among them. Even if Liberty were your only principle, you'd have to weigh the smoker's freedom to go to the theater while smoking against the asthmatic's freedom to go to the theater while breathing.

Is it conceivable that "thinking conservatives" DO perceive a Liberty issue in the cases you describe, but consider it to be outweighed by Sanctity/Purity and Authority issues?

Of course, that's "thinking conservatives", who start with principles and reason to conclusions rather than vice versa, and who can recognize a moral dilemma when they see one. Media attention tends to go to the other kind of conservatives, and there's not much point trying to figure out their "thought processes".

Re: Liberty

Date: 2016-06-01 12:48 am (UTC)
pryder: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pryder
Conflicting liberties play out in many situations. A recently prominent one is the case of people who want the right to refuse to offer goods or services to LGBTQ people, such as the bakery that declined to make a wedding cake for a same sex marriage.

Whose liberty do you protect: the maker who wants control over who to sell to, or the customer who wants to buy? My sympathies, and I suspect those of most liberals, are with the buyer. In large part that is because the era of segregation showed us the damaging effects of allowing makers and owners to refuse to sell.

Re: Liberty

Date: 2016-06-07 05:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 403.livejournal.com
Is it conceivable that "thinking conservatives" DO perceive a Liberty issue in the cases you describe, but consider it to be outweighed by Sanctity/Purity and Authority issues?

I've seen this attitude among Modern Orthodox Jewry (who are often politically liberal!), applied to matters of Jewish law. It used to be that LGBTQ folk realized they didn't fit into Orthodox society, and dropped out. But with the gains they've seen in the secular world in the past decade or so, people who grow up Orthodox and realize they're also some flavor of queer have started to stick around and require the community to deal with their existence. It's fascinating to watch.

Re: Liberty

Date: 2016-05-31 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I think it depends on the type of Conservative. I know several nonreligious conservatives who are equally fine with gay and straight marriage, seeing it as a legal contract between two adults, seeing no reason to pass laws limiting the gender of the participants. I just ate dinner with a fairly conservative friend who doesn't see the locker room issue as a problem. If someone claiming to be transgender behaves in a criminal fashion (assaulting other uses of that locker room), throw the book at them but otherwise, who cares? was basically my friend's position.

Re: Liberty

Date: 2016-06-01 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I think the examples you don't give are not evidence that Conservatives do not value Liberty; they are examples where LIberty is trumped by other values. It's not that the Liberty of allowing gays to marry isn't important; it's that it's less important than Sanctity, namely the sanctity of marriage, or the sanctity of being able to pretend that gay sexuality does not exist. Similarly, the Sanctity principle "having sex must be minimized" is more important than the Harm principle of "don't make people have unwanted children".

I agree that arguing this sort of issue with Conservatives can be difficult, but it's not because they don't recognize Harm or Liberty; it's that they aren't willing to give the real, Sanctity-based reason for their position, so they make up other reasons, and arguing against these made-up reasons, rather than their real reason, doesn't persuade.

RE: Liberty

Date: 2016-06-01 12:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catsittingstill.livejournal.com
I also suspect that Conservatives do not hold all six of Haidt's principles. If they cared about Care and Fairness you'd see them acknowledging the internal conflicts between Purity and Care or Purity and Fairness a lot more often. I am unaware of *any* conservative essay saying "I'd love to force those women who are pregnant against their will to have unwanted babies, but we can't do that because it is harmful" or "I'd love to keep gay people from marrying but we can't do that because it is unfair." I have not followed conservative thought in depth so perhaps I have missed something but acknowledging the internal moral tensions of trying to follow all six principles doesn't seem common, at least.

Instead some of them invoke the Care and Fairness principles where they clearly don't apply--talk about one lone teenage atheist receiving death threats for requesting that a religious inscription be removed from a publicly funded school as if she were cruelly bullying them, that kind of thing. It's sort of cargo-cult morality--they're using the right words, but the way they use them shows they don't really understand them.
From: [identity profile] fabrisse.livejournal.com
The "what are you doing in this restroom" thing is already happening. Oddly enough, the ones that I know of -- thanks to the victims friends recording and putting on YouTube -- have all been women from birth. In some ways, pursuit of this policy gives those who want to promulgate it free bonus prejudices to exercise.

I've read some fascinating articles (very basic) on grinding. What harm does it do to someone if they choose to fit their fingertips with magnets (or whatever)? But I can certainly see that type of modification being banned if these laws are passed. The precedent will exist.

As far as the rest of it goes... I'm usually asked to help trans customers because some of my colleagues are uncomfortable with the idea of trans. I don't mind doing it, but at some point people just need to do their damned jobs.
pryder: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pryder
The bathroom thing isn't just about enforcing biological sex, it is also about enforcing traditional gender roles. The assigned-female-at-birth women who have experienced problems in the women's room are people who don't adhere to those rules, notably butch women.
ext_104661: (Default)
From: [identity profile] alexx-kay.livejournal.com
Editorial:

"locker rooms locker rooms"
Don't need so many separate rooms :-)

"I think this is, far and away, is"
Redundant "is".
From: [identity profile] serakit.livejournal.com
I think you just explained why I so often find myself at odds with both liberals and conservatives-- because I make my opinions on public policy first from Liberty and then from Care and Fairness, and don't hold the other three as valid starting points for public policy. I end up being more on the liberal side than the conservative one because I'm using the same three bases as liberals, but in different measured amounts so I often end up in arguments where I'm the only one taking the position I'm in.

Also, I appreciate your pointing out where I should be looking if I want to write the next visionary science fiction novel. Biomedical revolution.

(Those are the bits of essay I had specific comment on; the rest I mostly issue general agreement towards.)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-06-12 06:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashnistrike.livejournal.com
I agree with your argument here, and think you make a lot of good points about how we need to talk about issues of bodily autonomy. Now I'm going to get nitpicky and speculative about Haidt. In all the below I'm using "liberal" and "conservative" to refer to US-specific in-groups that may have shifting beliefs, not to core ideologies.

My central objection to Haidt is his definition of sanctity/purity. Liberals care a great deal about these things and consider them an appropriate basis for law--they just don't agree with conservatives about what constitutes being sacred or pure. Anti-GMO laws are frequently purity-based (except for the rare occasions when they're based in fairness or harm). Environmental rhetoric is equal parts sanctity and harm. I would have some trouble coming up with an argument for the National Park system that didn't focus on sanctity--there are arguments to be made from harm, but most liberals (maybe even most people) who value human-resident-free space do so for sanctity reasons.

I'm not sure that liberals don't care about loyalty, either, although most of those I know (including myself) see it as shading pretty hardcore into caring. I'm loyal to communities and organizations because I care about the people and goals involved--how else? For a lot of conservatives, though, I suspect it shades into authority, so equal fuzziness on both sides.

Somewhere in the past decade, a significant subset of conservatives seem to have edged away from patriotism, and from seeing any value in government as an organization. It seems almost inevitable that liberals will pick up the dropped ball--it's too rhetorically valuable to do otherwise. So loyalty, to the degree that it's a separate thing from the other 5 principles, could shift over. This fits with the people above suggesting that conservatives are increasingly rejecting care, harm, and even sometimes liberty (actual liberty, rather than the liberty to punch noses) as valid sources of law. So we could end up with--may, in fact, already have:

Liberals: Care (+Loyalty), Harm, Liberty, Sanctity/purity (environmental & health)
Conservatives: Authority (+Loyalty), Liberty (to punch noses, which may come down to Authority), Sanctity/purity (sex/gender)

This involves no actual overlap, and three principles that go by the same name. This probably explains a lot of failed efforts at public discourse.
From: [identity profile] yakshaver.livejournal.com

I read this when you first posted it, and let it roll around my head. Now, in the wake of Orlando and Brexit, I've come back to re-read it.

It was part 1 that gave me the most food for thought — the rest was mostly yeah, that follows. I had always assumed that everyone believed the basis for moral reasoning was the golden rule — which, in Haidt's taxonomy, is essentially fairness and care. (I was going to say and liberty — but I'm pretty sure application of the golden rule necessarily leads to liberty, whereas fairness and care are at its root.) And those times when I have actually argued morality-and-politics with people, it's been because I thought my interlocutor capable of clear thinking — and if only I could get them to see how their views contradicted the golden rule, I could turn them away from the dark side.

So it's sort of a relief to learn that they're basing their reasoning on things I'd never considered. Not that knowing it doesn't still leave me going WTF‽ I can see loyalty as a value — but one that emerges from the golden rule, and has to be tempered by other values that grow from its application. But authority and sanctity? What even are those? Didn't the scientific revolution pretty much show authority to be a naked emperor? And surely in the West, everyone understands that the sacred is not societally agreed-upon. One man's theology is another man's belly-laugh, to quote Heinlein.

Oddly, I don't think the events of the past two weeks have changed how I read your discussion of how conservatives approach moral reasoning in the public sphere. What has changed is how I view fellow-travelers. Thoughtful people may have good reasons for wanting to slap the EU upside the head, or for their country to take better control of its borders. But when you find yourself rallying around the flag with a bunch of bigots, it's time to look for a different way to further your reasonable agenda. Because we all know what happens when bigots think they're ascendant.

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