oursin: George Beresford photograph of Marie of Roumania, overwritten 'And I AM Marie of Roumania' (Marie of Roumania)
[personal profile] oursin

The narrative of ancient tribes around the world regularly using ayahuasca and magic mushrooms in healing practices is a popular one. Is it true?:

Brabec de Mori arrived in Peru thinking that ayahuasca had been used in the western Amazon for thousands of years. This is the standard narrative; look up resources on ayahuasca, and you’re bound to run into it. “Ayahuasca has been used in the Peruvian Amazon for millennia, long before the Spanish came to Peru, before the Incan empire was formed, before history,” states the website of the Ayahuasca Foundation, an organisation founded by a US citizen that offers ayahuasca retreats. Yet with time, Brabec de Mori came to see just how flimsy this narrative was. He discovered “a double discourse, which happens in all societies where there is tourism”, he said. “People start to tell the tourists – and I found that most Shipibo people did not distinguish tourists from researchers – the stories they think are interesting for them and not what they really live with.”

Surprise? - not.

(Cite here to my beloved Ronald Hutton, who unpicked the dubious narrative of primeval Siberian shamanism - the ur-narrative, as it were - in the 1990s.)

And on the Central/South American version of this tale, I am feeling like the oldest inhabitant here, but back in the 70s everybody was all over Carlos Castaneda and the Teaching of Don Juan, which it is now fairly widely accepted he made up. There was also the extremely loopy The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

Why are people so enamoured of the 'ancient primeval ritual' thing?

(This looks particularly sus when policy-makers are happily heading back to pre-germ theory as if miasma is Lost Wisdom rather than Exploded Hypothesis.)

On the enduring power of dubious myths and remedies, today over on bluesky somebody mentioned in passing the touting of 'magnetised rings' for the trials of perimenopause. I have come across these being marketed for pretty much Anything That Ails You well into C20th and was able to find mid-C19th advertising pamphlet.

Also (not sure if this connects on or not), the Deathbed Conversion narrative - again on bluesky somebody linked to a text claiming that Pasteur on deathbed reneged from germ theory to terrain theory, and I at once recalled the case of Darwin's alleged deathbed conversion and I believe that asserting that Famous Freethinkers felt the proximity of Hellfire as their end approached and returned to Belief has been quite a common tale. Yeah, sure.

Date: 2025-05-02 06:39 pm (UTC)
princessofgeeks: Shane in the elevator after Vegas (Default)
From: [personal profile] princessofgeeks
This weird thing where we Westerners are all for the lost wisdom of an ancient golden age and/or romanticized views of indigenous people after centuries of methodically attempting to wipe them out.... argh.

Date: 2025-05-02 09:42 pm (UTC)
jesse_the_k: dark clouds frame sun rising between standing stones (clouds dawn stonehenge)
From: [personal profile] jesse_the_k

Precisely so -- makes me wonder if the awed respect is an attempt at reparation?

Date: 2025-05-03 03:57 am (UTC)
princessofgeeks: Shane in the elevator after Vegas (Default)
From: [personal profile] princessofgeeks
I'm not sure. I think it's pretty much straight up appropriation/cherry picking what is thought of as The Cool Stuff.

Date: 2025-05-02 09:18 pm (UTC)
nineveh_uk: Illustration that looks like Harriet Vane (Default)
From: [personal profile] nineveh_uk
Let’s review a couple of examples. Winkelman presents what he calls “the mushroom stones of Chucuito”, large sculptures with domed caps and elongated stems discovered in highland Peru. It’s certainly possible that these were made to resemble mushrooms. Yet Winkelman fails to acknowledge the leading interpretation of these statues – that they’re penises. In fact, the site’s local name – Inka Uyo – might come from the Quechua word for penis. Winkelman includes a picture of some “mushroom stones” yet does not present the most prominent statue, which towers above the others and has a large groove resembling the external opening of the urethra.

I'm almost impressed at someone managing to have their pet theory be that a phallus is not a phallus.

Date: 2025-05-02 10:04 pm (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
Did those get a mention in Eleanor Cameron's Mushroom Planet books? Because that would be hilarious if so. The term "mushroom stones" rings a very faint Cameronian bell in my mind, but I may be imagining it (conflating it with the stones in Ta's necklace, for instance).

Date: 2025-05-03 09:00 pm (UTC)
nineveh_uk: Illustration that looks like Harriet Vane (Default)
From: [personal profile] nineveh_uk
Alas, I have not read them so do not know.

Date: 2025-05-02 10:09 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
That reminds me of the great grammatical exercise "His enemies came to see the dying Hume; his friends came to see Hume, dying."

Date: 2025-05-03 12:27 am (UTC)
snippy: Lego me holding book (Default)
From: [personal profile] snippy
Why are people so enamoured of the 'ancient primeval ritual' thing?

Casual supposition: christianity became such an all-encompassing part of the western world that the only way they can imagine being allowed outside of its strictures is to invest heavily in non-christian explanations for meeting their desires. After all, if it's just today's desires, it's already covered by christianity.

Date: 2025-05-03 01:19 am (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
Interesting re: Hutton--good to learn of his book. I mean, there are and have been shamans in NE Asia, but yes, perhaps not as (broadly speaking) the Western imagination has sort of wished there would be. (The obvious other comparative vantage alongside Saami practices, for whether central-north Asian practices developed with and against the adoption of Buddhism, would be the opposite direction--Shinto and Muism in Japan and Korea.)

Date: 2025-05-03 03:08 am (UTC)
ranunculus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ranunculus
I remember how taken a lot of people were with Carlos Castaneda. He wasn't my cup of tea at all. I knew a lot of people who experimented with peyote because of his books.

Date: 2025-05-09 07:28 pm (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)
From: [personal profile] silveradept
I think people get enamored of those ancient rituals because they're looking for something that's different than their current life, and there's enough free-floating conservatism / Christianity around that makes people think that the past was always better, simpler, and more pure than the current era, and therefore everything that came from there is better.

Which is fine when that kind of view isn't involved in public health policy and trying to bring us back to the era of the balance of the humours.

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